I agree w longer stake periods (I pushed for it )
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Here are some points to consider for each of your discussion topics:
- Staking Lockup Duration:
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Short Lockup (e.g., 1-3 months): This could encourage more participation by allowing more liquidity and flexibility for stakers. However, it might lead to less commitment to the networkās long-term health.
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Medium Lockup (e.g., 6-12 months): Strikes a balance between commitment and flexibility. It could incentivize a more stable participation while still allowing some turnover in stakers.
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Long Lockup (e.g., 1-2 years): Promotes high commitment and stability, potentially leading to a more secure network. However, this might deter participants due to the lack of liquidity.
- ASR
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Too Large: Might inflate the tokenās supply, potentially decreasing its value unless thereās a corresponding increase in the platformās utility or demand. It could also attract participants solely interested in short-term gains rather than the projectās success.
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Too Small: Might not sufficiently incentivize staking, leading to lower participation rates and network security issues.
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Just Right: Should be balanced to reward participants adequately while ensuring the tokenās economic model remains sustainable. This amount could be determined by economic modeling, considering factors like inflation rate, staking participation rates, and overall network growth.
- Distribution of ASR Rewards:
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Monthly: Provides regular income, making staking more attractive for those needing liquidity or preferring smaller, frequent rewards.
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Quarterly: Might reduce administrative overhead compared to monthly distributions and could promote a bit more long-term commitment from stakers.
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After Every Vote: Could be interesting if voting is a regular activity, tying rewards directly to governance participation, thus encouraging engagement. However, it might complicate reward calculation and distribution.
The distribution frequency should align with the communityās preference for liquidity versus administrative simplicity and governance participation incentives.
- Other Concerns:
- How are staked tokens protected against hacks or smart contract vulnerabilities?
3 Likes
Early Unstaking with Penalty:
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Pros:
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Incentive for Long-term Commitment: This model encourages users to commit for the full staking period by making early withdrawal less financially appealing. It can help stabilize the network by ensuring more long-term participation.
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Reward Redistribution: By redistributing the forfeited tokens, it can boost the reward pool, indirectly benefiting those who remain staked, which could lead to a positive feedback loop for staking.
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Cons:
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User Experience: Some users might find this punitive, potentially deterring new stakers or those with less liquidity or tolerance for long-term commitments.
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Complexity: Calculating and explaining the penalty might add complexity to the user interface and experience, requiring clear communication to avoid confusion.
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3 Likes
Before making any decisions, I need to know how season 2 is going to work and whether CLOUD will play any part in it.
My immediate thoughts are that the lock up is too long & 50M is too much.
Unstaking should be instant, next epoch, with bonus voting power the longer the lock up period you choose, similar to the way EGLD & ICP are with their 8 year lockup maximum.
There can be a restacking countdown period to avoid other issues like the constant buying and selling between votes.
Just say you canāt stake for 30 days after unstaking and your vote weight is what you had staked prior to the proposal being launched. With votes being random you know you may miss a vote, and the rewards, if you unstake and it stops people from voting that only stake after a proposal is live.
Staking rewards should accumulate per vote but but linearly unlock. This compromises with people concerned about the market conditions and lock ups but also stops massive amounts of sale pressure from happening all at once every 3-6 months.
People can withdrawal unlocks every single day if they have a balance of rewards. This allows for compounding rewards between votes to maximize rewards for those active enough to do it.
I donāt think the number of votes should matter, all that does is punish new people that stake between cycles. The extra voting weight from lock up bonuses I discussed above eliminates the need for this anyway.
50m is way too much over 6 months. Once thatās gone and gov rewards are strictly futarchy I believe weāll see a massive reward shock that will lead to bad publicity from disgruntled stakers, mass selloffs, and lack of participation. Someone that only cares about their bag will probably like it because theyāre thinking short term rewards, you could say 100m and theyād be even happier, but you have to think of the whole picture and the impacts itāll have.
A big question though is whether staking CLOUD makes more sense than adding that liquidity to season 2 of Wonderland and we wonāt know that until we have more S2 info.
5 Likes
yes $cloud stake its a good way to gib utility
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hi team. on the other hand, two-month staking with no early release can be troublesome in special situations. the introduction of an āemergencyā token release option with a penalty would be desirable.
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I think that 60 days is too much, we need a happy medium, 30 would be better, 60 days will slow down a lot of liquidity for many people, even if they believe in you
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But if youāre doing that then the staking rewards have to come in quicker / more frequently than if unstaking period was 30days. Rewards would make people see the rewards of their activity, which will encourage them to participate more in governance.
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I totally agree 1000%. Iām waiting this for a long time since day 1. Iām always a long-term HODLer, so this proposal is the best I need.
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What does this mean: āone must have a minimum trading volume of at least 10 USDCā ?
Like the wallet has to be active or what ?
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No. U must have at least 10 USDC in your wallet to make a trade. Minimum 10 USDC. You will be not able to participate when u have less usdc.
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Bullish on cloud staking and voting.
IĀ“m not familiar with the futarchy model and I have mixed feelings about the trading approach it is based on, i fear it might trigger a speculative trading approach rather than a voting on what you fundamentally think is the best.
Based on posts i and comments i have seen it seems confusing and dividing to the community.
I would prefer a traditional governance system like JUP instead of an overcomplicating and confusing system with uncertain outcome would better solution and more aligned with my perception of the sanctum community.
A 60 day lock as standard seems long, i would rather add a boost multiplier that rewards holding, stake time and choosing to stake the asr.
Long lock ups combined with trading speculation is not th e path i would chose.
4 Likes
I liked so much the purpose. The amount of Cloud X Time is very attractive.
Surely Iāll be in.
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Iāve been holding all my tokens since airdrop. Would love to stake them
2 Likes
Iām with the growing number of people here confused about what staking is meant to be.
NOTE: anyone want to comment on the Futarcy piece there's a proposal here for that https://research.sanctum.so/t/introducing-sanctum-governance/1234. I'll express my hesitation about creating yet-another CLOUD token that needs liquidity in that post.
But what is the point of staking to the protocol?
We all know the value to stakers: ROI.
But to get a return on an investment you need that investment to make profits. Preferably long term sustainable profits.
(see my separate post about what we can learn from Jupiterās ASR program).
The core business of Sanctum is token creation.
You donāt run your own validator, INF is basket of assets; not your own validator, (please correct me if Iām wrong) so you personally donāt need to attract stake.
You do need the tokens launched on Sanctum to attract stake though as their success is your success.
If we assume that you will have no end of people wanting to launch tokens on Sanctum then the name of the game is attracting stake to the existing Sanctum tokens.
CLOUD is only useful in-so-much as it helps increase the amount of total SOL staked in Sanctum tokens.
By extension then any CLOUD staking needs to be contributing to a growth in SOL staking on Sanctum tokens.
I think locking CLOUD by itself has low value. Locking a CLOUD-INF LP token has a lot more value as itās useful even if someone does nothing else (increases liquidity and SOL stake).
But then we still need to figure out how you go from locking a token up to increasing the amount of SOL staked in Sanctum products.
I would like to see a lot more discussion about how that happens before Iād be comfortable voting on a staking program or even discussing how that staking program should function.
2 Likes
Letās be very careful writing up Jupiterās ASR as a success just yet.
They gave away a heap of tokens.
Thatās not a success: Thatās a rewards program.
What did Jupiter get for all that money spent? Itās hard to say and Jupiter definitely arenāt giving any figures yet.
The initial staking rewards that were were geared towards drawing attention to their launchpad. That was smart as, after all, it is people trading on chain that directly affect the success/failure of token launches. Largely I thought this was successful to start with, but it seemed that success was a case of diminishing returns. Havenāt seen anything from that launchpad for many months now. Thatās very interesting Jupiter themselves have decided not to carry on with that after touting it as a success.
Next they invested heavily into their DAO-like collective. Yes itās been popularā¦but Jupiter have kept dolling out the money so thereās an underlying incentive to engage. I havenāt seen one analysis of what the ROI has been here. Has Jupiter even seen a return on their investment? Will they ever? See Polkadot for how this can go badly pear-shaped over the longer term.
A normal business links any community marketing to tangible results. Methinks if Jupiter actually linked rewards to net new users onboarded (affiliate program) and social account growth (and growth on multiple platforms) we see most of these content creators vanish as theyāre delivering neither of these outcomes.
I think Jupiter has focused their voting on those things that most heavily rely on individual user engagement over dollar engagement, and thatās smart, but only smart in-so-much as you link that to tangible outcomes. So far there is no linkage.
IMO this is the lesson you can learn from Jupiterās ASR program to date.
2 Likes
Thanks.
Now I see how voting would work.
2 Likes
In general, the proposal is quite good, I think the staking duration is big and some people wonāt stake because of this. Except if the sCLOUD are tradable (are they? I donāt think so). Rewards amount is very good, I prefer the monthly distribution, we might avoid big sell presure. Linear vesting is like a penalty? I meant we could unstake anytime within these 60 days but the sooner the amount will be smaler?
1 Like
Lots of the ideas in here are great.
ASR rewards is great. Ideally theyāre paid out monthly.
the lockup period is far too long, considering the stage we are in the bull run.
having to convert cloud to sCLOUD is a pain in the ass from tax point of view and will refrain many larger players from getting involved.
additionally, it is beneficial to make people aware how much 50M cloud is of the total supply as that informs people how much they could actually earn from participating.
apart from ASR rewards, what else is going to make someone want to/need to buy CLOUD? some people are here for the tech/community etc, but overall people are here for the money.
for me, for instance, the tax side of things of converting cloud to scloud to partake in the dao just makes it not worth it. if it was just cloud<>cloud then thatās already way better. however the 60day lock up risk is just a headache that will stray most away. 30 days is long enough as it isā¦
thank you for reading this far and hope you dont mind my candidness.
4 Likes
ASR is a great idea, but we need to implement it correctly. Where will future ASR rewards come from after the initial 50m runs out?
2 Likes